ZULUTRADE --- why it really isn't copy trading and why so many are losing money


#1

Why is Zulu Copy Trading run the way it is run, without much care about whether traders / investors are making money / sharing in the success of Zulu (commissions)?
See article below re Formax Group and who owns AAAFX and also my experience so far -with 15 years trading and fund management experience to draw from.

https://investingoal.com/zulutrade-acquired-by-formax-group/

ZuluTrade acquired by the Formax Group from China
The famous Social and Copy Trading platform, one of the first in the industry, was acquired by Formax Group, a large Chinese group with offices in the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong and Vietnam, and branches in 33 major cities in China, including Beijing, Tianjin, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Wuhan and Chengdu.

Formax Group operates in the field of integrated financial products and offers asset management services, investment consultancies and financial credits.

Among the services offered by Formax Group are infrastructures for trading on US and HK stocks, and forex currencies, P2P services, small and micro loans and other financial services related to the Fintech field.

Formax Group, led and founded (in 2012) by Bill Wang, hasn’t simply acquired the ZuluTrade platform, but also includes the other subsidiaries of the group of Leon Yohai, founder and CEO of ZuluTrade.

In addition to ZuluTrade, the deal includes the acquisition of the Greek-based brokerage firm Dayo Innovative Trading Ltd., which operates under the well-known name of AAAFX, and is the real holder of the ZuluTrade patents.

Zulu will not change things / how the platform is managed so that the best traders and investors can make money when they work hard.

The over-emphasis on PIPs PIPs PIPs is ruining this social copy trading platform and we all are waiting for the much needed changes to be made – proper ranking algorithm for trading performance, equity as the main factor of displaying performance and offering copying of traders strategies — MUST copy the traders risk management as well as the entries and exits.

Perfect case of all this toxic environment is looking at the “REAL INVESTORS” TAB / “LIVE INVESTORS SUMMARY” on my profile.

  1. How can investors lose so much / when my equity curve is at equity highs?
  2. Look at almost every investor in the Real Investors left margin section, and you will see that they are NOT COPYING my PIPS / EQUITY that I am trading on the master account. It is not even close.

This is due to latency, poor spreads at investors brokerage, and investors copying at their own lot size and closing trades at their own discretion. THIS IS NOT COPY TRADING.

AND BECAUSE OF ALL THIS, I AM NOT GETTING PAID COMMISSIONS.

https://www.zulutrade.com/trader/375788/live-followers


#2

Hi @OutsidetheBoxHK,

I have been observing you for a while and I feel sad to even write the following because you have a lot of energy and potential in trading.

First a response to this:

Investors need a consistent way to measure how much a signal provider risks (pips or $$$) to get the reward (pips or $$$). Whether the ultimate ranking emphasis is on pips or equity it should be absolutely obvious that gaining equity alone is not a good or healthy way to rank investors. Sure Zulutrade can certainly improve their platform and ranking system in meaningful ways but they would be very unwise to modify their platform to encourage equity gain without regard to risk!

Requiring followers to exactly copy signal providers is also a potentially destructive idea!

  1. Most followers invest with more than one signal provider which is a very wise thing to do as proper diversification is often a key to long term success. Are you suggesting that everyone follow JUST you?
  2. Some followers have more money than others and thus can choose to copy signal provider exactly or scale as is applicable to their account size. For example, are you suggesting that all of your followers must dedicate $7,200 just to you? Or what if they only have $2,000 or what if they have $450,000 in Zulutrade?
  3. Some followers may want to open their own trades or follow their own strategies in addition to following signal providers. Are you suggesting that they shouldn’t be allowed to manage their own money?

From what I can see, your OutsidetheBoxHK account loses are NOT ultimately the fault of the Zulutrade platform, it is your trading style that has made it highly likely that your investors will lose money.

  1. You didn’t follow your rules in your profile. Followers need to be able to depend on what you say your signal will do. Full stop.
    • When you were in drawdown you opened more than 20 positions and your "soft mental stop loss: 125 - 150 pips per individual trade" is completely useless!
    • Investors put money with you expecting a specific set of parameters and then you changed your system while they had trades open! What else would you expect?!? Yes, some closed those unexpected trades intentionally and others likely had forced closes (margin call or Zulugaurd).
  2. On longer term trades, your Zulutrade history shows that your usual style total trade management has promoted loss.
    • Margin management, risk:reward and swaps.
      • For example, holding multiple shorts in USD/JPY for many, many weeks generates a lot of negative swap. Of course long term negative swaps can be acceptable if those trades typically closed with a favorable risk to reward ratio but, on average, your trades have risked a lot compared to the typical reward generated by them. Translation: even if you closed those trades at a small loss or a small gain, your drawdown was relatively huge and your followers were stuck bleeding money every trading day even if you didn’t.
  3. You started trading exotics
    • Until February 2019, your signal only traded well known major and minor pairs and then you suddenly shifted to trading exotic currencies. This is a monumentally HUGE shift and, as far as I can see, you never gave any indication to your followers that you were going to do so. I suspect that most of your current followers have no real idea how risky exotic currencies are (and I wonder if you do).
      • Margin for the exotic currencies such as the Turkish Lira (TRY) and the South African Rand (ZAR) are MUCH HIGHER than for Major and Minor currencies.
      • Volatility and spread for the exotic currencies that you trade are much higher as well.
      • You open multiple positions in those exotic currencies which increases the necessary margin.
      • You have no posted stops on any of your trades.
    • With this in mind I wouldn’t be surprised if some of your followers are already getting margin calls (and thus forced closes of trades) and if not now, they will if you keep trading like with so little regard to real risk.

Action item for you: please update your profile to reflect your actual trading style so that current and potential investors can better know what to expect.

It’s a shame that you’re so vocally blaming @ZuluTradersDesk for your troubles because, as far as I can tell, you losing your investors money isn’t a result of them or their platform, it is you.

Hopefully you’ll learn from your current experiences and soon get to a good place in the near future. Continue on your current path though and it is highly likely that your investors will continue to lose money.

You seem to have a good mind and also passion for trading. You want justice and you believe that hard work should mean something. May you put that gift to good use and learn how to collaborate with others for the benefit of all. I hope only the best for you.


#3

Hi guys, hope you are doing well! I wouldn’t like to comment on trading , but i think that zulu offers a game with some specific rules for traders. We traders, either accept to play the game with the rules or not. Having a nice positive and smooth graph in both USD and PIPS mode is far more demanding than just having the equity curve looking good. And the reason is that this rule pushes the trader to play fixed lot sizes.( ex. always open 0.1 lots). We know that what matters is money, BUT the game between traders must be competitive and the pips rule compliments this competition. We cannot all go to the top of the ranking, so the more difficult it is to go there, the best the traders that will reach the spots. Also it is much more difficult to be profitable with fixed lot size. But playing fixed, offers investors an easy way to follow. If the trader changes his lot size all the time that will be confusing for followers ( and destructive probably)
Personally i like the challenge of both equity and pips.
Wish you good trading and reach the top soon!


#4

this is fine.
But then zulutrade can not “have their cake and eat it too”
If followers are managing their own risk / using their own strategies / diversifying between multiple strategy providers, then their losses cannot be attributed to Traders on their profiles in the"Live Investors Summary" on the LIve Followers Tab.

Action item for you: Keep your ideas to act upon yourself and if I want your advice I will ask for it.
Thanks. Making suggestions is fine, but I trade with flexibility and with the mind that PIPs don’t matter as long as total open exposure in PERCENTAGE terms is below 1 standard lot per $10,000 and I remain under 15% total Equity Drawdown. All else is Zulu strategy for followers who are not dedicated to copy my WHOLE strategy and ONLY my strategy which is what I have always done for trade copying clients and Fund Management clients. I will not change for Zulu when I just made $40,000 this month using my strategy for 8 different accounts / 3 strategy offered on 6 different platforms (social trading and fund management).

Varying lot size is vital part of my strategy which is based on multi-confirmation, multi timeframe, and probability of success with each set up / entry. It is why I have 96% hit rate.


#5

You might be satisfied with your ranking or following, as each person and trader has their own journey and own set of goals and values.

But I know that I am here to Make as much money with as little risk as possible… and I am more qualified and have more dedicated time to to do this than many investors who also would like to engage in a Financial Service that allows them to copy the trades of those traders who have proven their edge and their acumen over a long period.

I am not here to compete with other traders.
I am not here to play a game.
I am here to attract investors to my managed account and to my trade copying services. Plain and simple.
And for these goals, pips do not matter.
Only equity and percentages of Drwdown and Monthly Profit and Recovery time.


#6

Hi OTB! hope everything is fine to the southern hemisphere:)
I have one tech question that regards any master account that trades with different lot sizes, including your own account and signal here in zulu.

I suppose that for someone to follow you suggest that he must set his account to PRO-DATA so he can follow your lot sizing. For example if you open 0.1 i get 0.1. If you open 0.02 i get the same lot in my following account.

For this scenario to be profitable for me, you should have mentioned me your current balance, lets say that you started with a deposit of 2500 and now you have 4000. So you are playing your lots according to this 4000. If i come and follow you PRO-DATA with 1500$ i will lose big because of the drawdowns, which will be ok for you but not ok for me since i am following you with PRODATA and i get your lot size open.

You see the complication of this thing? Imagine thousands of followers with different balances following your master account that manages the risk according to the 4000$.

So the only solution to this, is that you should update every day your recommended settings for prodata, since your balance is changing day to day and you are managing risk aways according to your new personal balance. And for a trader to follow you succesfuly he should always have equal or bigger balance than you. But never less.

All the best


#7

I was assuming the Zulu copying system does this PROPORTIONAL ALLOCATION SIZING automatically.
Isn’t that what trade copying is supposed to do?
Replicate the strategy of the master account as closely as possible?

Right now my master Mt Cook account has $7677
If I open 0.5 lots on NZDUSD
Then your account with $4000 should get copied approximately a lot sizing of 0.25 !!!
This is what I have always imagined that the Pro Rata Zulu copying system was doing for these investors.
The system follows the master’s balance and the follower’s balance automatically – we don’t have to update this manually!!
Or am I wrong about this?
@ZuluTradersDesk


#8

Hi
We experience the same problem with ZuluTrade, they make us feel very miserable and unnapreciated as traders !

First, the pending payments last forever, up to 60 days in which time you can not even request new payments !
Secondly, and even worse, they T&C traders will not get paid if they have a negative month in pips, which is putting unnecessary pressure to traders ! And now it gets even worse, they still make the same ammount of money from generated volume, but they will just refuse to pay traders !
Now this is a nice way to make a bussiness, right ?

“Let the fools(traders) work hard while we(ZuluTrade) get all the money !”

ZuluTrade should change how they treat traders and investors really fast !


#9

this is robbery. we shall see when it will come back to burn them.
we must spread the word to investors, because this is not in OUR best interest – only the interest of the broker.


#10

Hello Guys!

We do understand your frustration about the rules. These rules are running for many years and they are public to everyone in our Traders’ guide. However, we are not here to debate with you. We are here because we appreciate your feedback, especially from experienced traders like you.
Both you know that our dynamics are extremely positive and Traders are able to have this advantage. There are pros and cons to every single copy-trading network.
Nevertheless, we have proved to everyone that we listen to our Traders (and Investors) and we apply improvements as fast as we are able to. Indeed its not an easy task and this is why we are asking your patience each time.

We are preparing so many new features that will resolve/improve many practical issues. Both Traders and Investors wil be benefited.
Overall we will highly appreciate if we can have a constructive dialogue and avoid the leveling down approach.

Thanks everyone!


#11

This is what we’ve heard now.
What is the approximate / estimate timetable for these changes to take effect?


#12

As department we are pushing aggressively to implement Initial Capital and ROI% this month.
We are in a beta with the Capital. Then, ROI% will be easier.
Afterwards we will continue with more changes like DD %.
But OTB, we truly request your patience of all. We have already performed huge progress from the past and we are determined to continue strongly.

Regards,


New Ranking structure
#13

Good to see your are trying to improve

What about reducing pending time for payments down from 60 days and what about paying traders all tine time, exactly like you get paid from brokers ?


#14

Do you think that we are getting paid by Brokers instantly?
Unfortunately not. This is why we have 60 days upon request.
Overall we are trying to minimize the above period however when Brokers delay meeting the deadlines (a few occasions) , we have to cover all the payouts. This is an ongoing process and frankly, it’s not an easy task, especially when you are dealing with dozens of partners.


#15

@VorteXz_EA
YES!!! This would make our “patience” much easier. I’ve been here 5 months now.
New Equity Highs almost every month I’ve been here.
I’ve been paid ONLY 1 of 5 months.
Outside the Box Ichimoku Scalping low risk strategy at Zulu

I can provide totals and screenshots for anyone that wants proof.
How can excellent trading like this NOT get commission rebates / sharing and also how could it be labeled “Risky Trading”?

Screenshot 1: Payments from Zulu for my trading
Screenshot 2: Pips snapshot
Screenshot 3: Money snapshot


#16

@Orbital_Dynamics
Now what do you think, as two more months of trading have passed?
New highs in every way.
All stats are stellar. Over 28 months on my master account and 65 weeks here at Zulutrade.

Outside the Box Ichimoku Scalping low risk strategy at Zulu